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Topic:  MAC scheduling and tournament formats

Topic:  MAC scheduling and tournament formats
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Pataskala
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  Message Not Read  MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/26/2021 11:55:45 PM 
Now that the dust has settled somewhat from this past season, I'm curious as to what people think about the formats for MAC regular season scheduling and the MAC tournament. This season had different formats for both.

Divisions were gone -- This is the first of four seasons that the MAC won't have divisions for basketball. I've been an advocate for this for sometime, so naturally I'm for it. It gives greater flexibility in scheduling, while allowing two games for traditional rivalries to continue, and makes it easier to figure out the seeding for the tournament; you don't have to switch from one division to another to figure out the standings.

Number of regular season games -- This season had 20 scheduled, at least in part because teams weren't able to schedule the usual number of OOC games. I haven't heard whether this will continue. In past seasons the MAC has had 16 or 18, and some have suggested going to 22, with or without a tournament. 18 might be the limit with the usual number of OCC games.

Tournament format -- Only the top eight teams were in the tourney in order to cut costs. I haven't heard whether the powers that be plan to continue this format but the coaches apparently hate it. In the past all 12 teams have participated with the top four getting a first-round bye and in some years a double-bye for the top two seeds. I'd be ok with the bottom four teams in the regular season being weeded out.

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shabamon
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/27/2021 12:47:50 AM 
I'm okay with the bottom four not qualifying for the conference tournament. Puts more weight on the totality of the regular season. On the other hand, keeping the bottom four helps keep the fanbases engaged until the end. Not only might there be drama over who qualifies for the eight seed and better, there's drama over qualifying for the four seed or better.

If the MAC is going to stay with 18-20 conference games, I would like to see them designate one week in November or December when schools are in session for maybe two conference games. One weekday and one Saturday. That way you minimize the number of games that could fall on winter or spring breaks. I'd be much more interested in coming to a game the first weekend of December if we were playing Kent or Toledo as opposed to Austin Peay or Radford. Tuck those types of games into the winter breaks.
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TWT
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/27/2021 2:01:08 AM 
Eight is plenty for Cleveland. Seeds 9 & 10 should have a shot to make it down the stretch so the regular season is their play-in. Seeds 11 & 12 are god awful and don't belong.

MAC @ 20 game regular season is fine. Let each team have 3 protected rivalries to play twice then 6 others drawn out of a hat. Ohio could have Miami, Buffalo and Akron protected. Kent can go with Akron, Buffalo and Bowling Green. Akron then Ohio, Buffalo and Kent ect. Buffalo then of course with this pattern Kent/Akron/Ohio.

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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/27/2021 3:05:19 AM 
No divisions....complete round robin of 22 conference games....all 12 teams in the tournament....keep final 8 in Cleveland.

MAC has agreed with Rocket Mortgage to continue the tournament there through 2030. : )
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/27/2021 7:47:42 AM 
Jeff McKinney wrote:
No divisions....complete round robin of 22 conference games....all 12 teams in the tournament....keep final 8 in Cleveland.


This ^
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.
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/27/2021 8:38:57 AM 
shabamon wrote:
I'm okay with the bottom four not qualifying for the conference tournament. Puts more weight on the totality of the regular season. On the other hand, keeping the bottom four helps keep the fanbases engaged until the end. Not only might there be drama over who qualifies for the eight seed and better, there's drama over qualifying for the four seed or better.

If the MAC is going to stay with 18-20 conference games, I would like to see them designate one week in November or December when schools are in session for maybe two conference games. One weekday and one Saturday. That way you minimize the number of games that could fall on winter or spring breaks. I'd be much more interested in coming to a game the first weekend of December if we were playing Kent or Toledo as opposed to Austin Peay or Radford. Tuck those types of games into the winter breaks.


I’d like to second this man’s ideas.
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bornacatfan
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/27/2021 9:35:10 AM 
. wrote:
shabamon wrote:
I'm okay with the bottom four not qualifying for the conference tournament. Puts more weight on the totality of the regular season. On the other hand, keeping the bottom four helps keep the fanbases engaged until the end. Not only might there be drama over who qualifies for the eight seed and better, there's drama over qualifying for the four seed or better.

If the MAC is going to stay with 18-20 conference games, I would like to see them designate one week in November or December when schools are in session for maybe two conference games. One weekday and one Saturday. That way you minimize the number of games that could fall on winter or spring breaks. I'd be much more interested in coming to a game the first weekend of December if we were playing Kent or Toledo as opposed to Austin Peay or Radford. Tuck those types of games into the winter breaks.


I’d like to second this man’s ideas.


I would like to add some of the previous ideas the MVC floated during their rise prior to the big conferences decimating them of not playing Non Con games with RPIs (at the time) below a certain number. If you want to get our collective worth up you got to play teams that don't drag us down.

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CatsUp
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/28/2021 3:13:40 PM 
bornacatfan wrote:
. wrote:
shabamon wrote:
I'm okay with the bottom four not qualifying for the conference tournament. Puts more weight on the totality of the regular season. On the other hand, keeping the bottom four helps keep the fanbases engaged until the end. Not only might there be drama over who qualifies for the eight seed and better, there's drama over qualifying for the four seed or better.

If the MAC is going to stay with 18-20 conference games, I would like to see them designate one week in November or December when schools are in session for maybe two conference games. One weekday and one Saturday. That way you minimize the number of games that could fall on winter or spring breaks. I'd be much more interested in coming to a game the first weekend of December if we were playing Kent or Toledo as opposed to Austin Peay or Radford. Tuck those types of games into the winter breaks.


I’d like to second this man’s ideas.


I would like to add some of the previous ideas the MVC floated during their rise prior to the big conferences decimating them of not playing Non Con games with RPIs (at the time) below a certain number. If you want to get our collective worth up you got to play teams that don't drag us down.


I'm in general agreement with much of this. I support the idea of the regular season meaning something and would prefer just eight going to the MAC Tournament; all in Cleveland. As basically a one bid conference at this point, why run the risk of a poor team getting hot, at least in theory winning it all, and being a poor representative for the conference. Probably virtually no chance to win in the NCAA tournament and more likely a blowout loss.

I'd also like to see a complete 22 game conference schedule, where all teams play each other twice. I'm not a fan of unbalanced schedules when trying to determine the pecking order in any sport. Related to that thought, if we play Buffalo and Akron, or more, twice every year, that's a disadvantage when determining conference standings. Likewise, if Western plays Central and Eastern, or more, twice every year, that's an advantage that shouldn't be built into the scheduling. Plus, I think it's better to add 3-4 conference games than some of the low majors we've been picking up.

In addition, I'd love to play 2-3 high majors, especially if we could lure at least one to the Convo. However, maybe I'm wrong but I'm afraid that playing those teams (if you have a good team especially) is only possible these days in early season tournaments at neutral sites. It's the old worn out phrase that they sometimes even say publically..."We have nothing to gain and everything to lose". They will want nothing to do with us next year; especially in Athens. Furthermore, of course the NCAA won't force anything when it comes to scheduling. After all, such losses by the power programs might take away one of the crutches they use against mids to add power teams on selection Sunday.

And finally, given the limited opportunities I think there are to schedule high majors, I think it would be a good idea for the Ohio AD to try to set up our own version of the old bracket buster concept that was sponsored by ESPN at one time. Try to schedule 3-4 teams with this in mind. In looking at the latest KenPom.com ratings I see that Ohio is #81. We could try to schedule those programs who are + or - 30 from our ranking, for instance. Teams within that group include: St. Louis, Drake, Richmond, Xavier (although I don't think they'd play us), Davidson, Wright State...all above us, and, Dayton (see Xavier), Marshall, Liberty, W Ky, Winthrop, Greensboro, Belmont...all below us. I'll add that I think there is incentive for most of those teams to play us too. Who knows, if we are "on the bubble" in March maybe it could help. Worth a try.
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Jeff McKinney
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/28/2021 5:28:06 PM 
CatsUp, good post. All the posts on this thread remind me of the old days when we had some good stuff regularly on BA.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/29/2021 11:15:55 AM 
I like divisions and the 18 game schedule. Home and home in division, one each against opposite division. Eat west banter and bragging rights simple schedule rotation and 18 games is plenty. I like the added flavor of more non conference games.
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/29/2021 11:40:59 AM 
CatsUp wrote:
I support the idea of the regular season meaning something and would prefer just eight going to the MAC Tournament; all in Cleveland. As basically a one bid conference at this point, why run the risk of a poor team getting hot, at least in theory winning it all, and being a poor representative for the conference. Probably virtually no chance to win in the NCAA tournament and more likely a blowout loss.


Do you mean like 2010?
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GoCats105
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/29/2021 11:41:51 AM 
If we can fill the schedule with more quality (aka 22 conference round robin) than the dregs of the SWAC or wherever else, then sign me up. I do agree that it gives any top team in the west (aka TOLEDO) a leg up when they get to take on NIU and EMU twice while we get Akron, Buffalo and Kent. If the conference is truly trying for more competition and want the cream to rise to the top, then make it even when all is said and done.

I know budgets are always a big concern when it comes to scheduling OOC, but it would be nice to see us schedule west of the Mississippi every once in a while.
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/29/2021 11:46:03 AM 
CatsUp wrote:

And finally, given the limited opportunities I think there are to schedule high majors, I think it would be a good idea for the Ohio AD to try to set up our own version of the old bracket buster concept that was sponsored by ESPN at one time. Try to schedule 3-4 teams with this in mind. In looking at the latest KenPom.com ratings I see that Ohio is #81. We could try to schedule those programs who are + or - 30 from our ranking, for instance. Teams within that group include: St. Louis, Drake, Richmond, Xavier (although I don't think they'd play us), Davidson, Wright State...all above us, and, Dayton (see Xavier), Marshall, Liberty, W Ky, Winthrop, Greensboro, Belmont...all below us. I'll add that I think there is incentive for most of those teams to play us too. Who knows, if we are "on the bubble" in March maybe it could help. Worth a try.



Would love to see this. They have those pseudo-tournaments that we've participated in recently where there are five teams and they play a round robin format in December but they've always included a couple of lower mids. Would love to see it be field of the types of teams you have above.
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CatsUp
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/29/2021 6:19:20 PM 
OUVan wrote:
CatsUp wrote:
I support the idea of the regular season meaning something and would prefer just eight going to the MAC Tournament; all in Cleveland. As basically a one bid conference at this point, why run the risk of a poor team getting hot, at least in theory winning it all, and being a poor representative for the conference. Probably virtually no chance to win in the NCAA tournament and more likely a blowout loss.


Do you mean like 2010?


Well OUV, we would have certainly missed out on a lot of fun with our Bobcats if they were left out as a nine seed. I will give you that. ;)

However, even that doesn’t change my opinion about fairness and what is the best arrangement for the conference in the long run. But that’s just my opinion. Obviously on this board not everyone agrees with that assessment.
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El Gato Roberto
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats (NT)
   Posted: 3/29/2021 6:52:13 PM 

Last Edited: 3/29/2021 6:52:38 PM by El Gato Roberto

"The name's Ohio University, but everybody calls me Ohio. Any of you guys call me Ohio U, and I'll kill you."
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El Gato Roberto
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/29/2021 6:53:12 PM 
OUVan wrote:
CatsUp wrote:
I support the idea of the regular season meaning something and would prefer just eight going to the MAC Tournament; all in Cleveland. As basically a one bid conference at this point, why run the risk of a poor team getting hot, at least in theory winning it all, and being a poor representative for the conference. Probably virtually no chance to win in the NCAA tournament and more likely a blowout loss.


Do you mean like 2010?

Exactly. Let them play! 2010 was a blast.

"The name's Ohio University, but everybody calls me Ohio. Any of you guys call me Ohio U, and I'll kill you."
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OUVan
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/29/2021 9:15:54 PM 
CatsUp wrote:
OUVan wrote:
CatsUp wrote:
I support the idea of the regular season meaning something and would prefer just eight going to the MAC Tournament; all in Cleveland. As basically a one bid conference at this point, why run the risk of a poor team getting hot, at least in theory winning it all, and being a poor representative for the conference. Probably virtually no chance to win in the NCAA tournament and more likely a blowout loss.


Do you mean like 2010?


Well OUV, we would have certainly missed out on a lot of fun with our Bobcats if they were left out as a nine seed. I will give you that. ;)

However, even that doesn’t change my opinion about fairness and what is the best arrangement for the conference in the long run. But that’s just my opinion. Obviously on this board not everyone agrees with that assessment.


I'm of the opinion that leaving the bottom four teams out doesn't help anyone. Having every fanbase remaining engaged until the end of the season is a plus. Letting in the final four actually helps reward the top 4 teams IMO since the teams they would face have to play an extra game. Plus in the last 15 seasons the MAC has had 5 years where we have won a game in the NCAA tournament. Twice it was a year that the #1 seed won the tournament and three times is was a lower seed. I know that is anecdotal and hardly conclusive. At the end of the day I just don't like the idea of leaving any teams and fanbases out. Even for the teams that don't have a chance it's a good experience to build on.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/30/2021 12:13:34 PM 
CatsUp wrote:

And finally, given the limited opportunities I think there are to schedule high majors, I think it would be a good idea for the Ohio AD to try to set up our own version of the old bracket buster concept that was sponsored by ESPN at one time. Try to schedule 3-4 teams with this in mind. In looking at the latest KenPom.com ratings I see that Ohio is #81. We could try to schedule those programs who are + or - 30 from our ranking, for instance. Teams within that group include: St. Louis, Drake, Richmond, Xavier (although I don't think they'd play us), Davidson, Wright State...all above us, and, Dayton (see Xavier), Marshall, Liberty, W Ky, Winthrop, Greensboro, Belmont...all below us. I'll add that I think there is incentive for most of those teams to play us too. Who knows, if we are "on the bubble" in March maybe it could help. Worth a try.



I've been wondering for years why this hasn't been brought back. For me, Bracketbuster Saturday was one of my absolute favorite weekends for hoops every year. Linking up with maybe the Horizon/OVC/MVC to put something like this together would be fun.

And I'm 100% in agreement with bornacat -- requiring scheduling that doesn't bring the collective conference down is something that is long overdue.
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OU_Country
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/30/2021 12:14:04 PM 
shabamon wrote:
If the MAC is going to stay with 18-20 conference games, I would like to see them designate one week in November or December when schools are in session for maybe two conference games. One weekday and one Saturday. That way you minimize the number of games that could fall on winter or spring breaks. I'd be much more interested in coming to a game the first weekend of December if we were playing Kent or Toledo as opposed to Austin Peay or Radford. Tuck those types of games into the winter breaks.


100% Agree! The perfect timing would be the first week that no football takes place on a Saturday because of midweek football on ESPN the Ocho.
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bobcat 2000
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/30/2021 10:17:00 PM 
I'm all for the mac tourney having all teams play with the top eight playing in Cleveland. I don't think any team should get a bye to Cleveland . I feel all teams should have to fight their way thru. With regard to our schedule I feel we should play teams that are good and close by. I'm talking teams like Indiana, Michigan, Michigan state, Xavier,Kentucky and Cincinnati. Would be sweet to negotiate a home and home with Indiana to draw crowds. Also given our overall record against uva we should play them more often. Butler is someone we should play too. Teams like these are beatable and would look good as victories to pad our NCAA resume and bump up our shot for an at large bid. Playing in precseason tourneys with strong teams would be good for purpose of battle testing the team as well.
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GraffZ06
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 3/31/2021 1:59:41 AM 
I understand the sentiment, and fairness, in playing a full 22-game round robin conference schedule.

However, experience tells us a few things:
1) The MAC tends to be fairly evenly matched among the top to middle teams each year
2) MAC games are a grind, and any of those top to middle teams can win any given night
3) That results in MAC teams generally not running the table in conference play
4) The MAC is perceived/is a 1-bid league
5) Any MAC loss is therefore considered a "bad" loss since it would be against a non-tournament team (national opinion - we know otherwise)

So to me, the more conference games you schedule, you're taking AWAY the opportunity for a team to either a) beat a P5 in non-con (of course you actually need to win those games) or b) pad the W/L record with cupcakes and ADDING close fought, meat grinder conference games that can only hurt you.

I'd rather reduce the conference schedule.
With the added non-con schedule enforce an average RPI/NET/KenPom goal and floor for scheduling opponents.
Edit to add BracketBuster as a concept is fantastic. I'm all for the opportunity to schedule another good non-con game against non-traditional opponents, however it needs implemented by someone other than ESPN for TV $$ IMO.
I'm fine with allowing all 12 into the conference tournament, but make the bottom 4 "play-in" and add a round so it would look like

Rd 1
9-12
10-11

Rd 2
7-(10/11)
8-(9/12)

Rd 3
1-(8-9/12)
2-(7-10/11)
3-6
4-5

9-12 would have to win 5
7-8 would have to win 4
1-6 have to win 3, but 1 and 2 get to play a tired team in their first game

Last Edited: 3/31/2021 2:01:16 AM by GraffZ06
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Bobcat1996
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 4/2/2021 12:40:48 PM 
I understand the importance of playing a full 22 game round robin league schedule. Playing extra league schools are better than scheduling Wilbenforce, Rio, Heidelberg or Capital. As it stands now, the MAC regular season winner doesn't benefit from the grind of winning the regular season title. A few conferences like the Big South, Patriot and maybe one more play games at the higher seed. I would prefer the MAC stay in Cleveland, but the regular season winner doesn't get much of an advantage for a one bid league.

Last Edited: 4/2/2021 12:41:42 PM by Bobcat1996
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Andrew Ruck
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 4/2/2021 11:38:28 PM 
Discussed many years ago, but I am in favor of drastically emphasizing the regular season while still keeping the madness of the tourney with the following format:

1-2 - Triple Bye
3-4 - Double Bye
5-6 - Single Bye
7-8 - Home Game
9-10 - Away Game
11-12 - Season Over

Andrew Ruck
B.B.A. 2003

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Jeff McKinney
  Message Deleted  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 4/3/2021 12:23:21 AM 
This Message was Deleted at 4/3/2021 12:26:44 AM
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FearLeon
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  Message Not Read  RE: MAC scheduling and tournament formats
   Posted: 4/3/2021 10:49:55 AM 
Andrew Ruck wrote:
Discussed many years ago, but I am in favor of drastically emphasizing the regular season while still keeping the madness of the tourney with the following format:

1-2 - Triple Bye
3-4 - Double Bye
5-6 - Single Bye
7-8 - Home Game
9-10 - Away Game
11-12 - Season Over


Some good thoughts here. Triple bye is good and bad in my opinion. It does put emphasis on regular season, but you also risk facing a hot team that's won a few games before you would even play a game. Tough one...but I see the logic here.



#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

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