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Topic: Retain Coach Phillips

Topic: Retain Coach Phillips

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Jeff McKinney
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Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 12:58:45 PM

I support giving Coach Coach Phillips a new contract. There are probably over a dozen different criteria for evaluating coaches. I think Coach has performed well in many of those criteria and in building a solid program culture. I want to win as much as anybody on this board. I predict if Ohio retains him that the losing is going to stop and that we will soon be moving back into the upper echelon of this league. I think the recruiting is upticking and that part of the program will get more productive. For those of you who think he can't identify talent, look at Jay Preston.

Re-hiring Coach Phillips will keep stability in the program.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 1:15:27 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

+1

Very well stated, Jeff!

The only BLSS Certified Hypocrite on BA

"It is better to be an optimist and be proven a fool than to be a pessimist and be proven right."

Note: My avatar is the national colors of the 78th Ohio Veteran Volunteer Infantry, which are now preserved in a climate controlled vault at the Ohio History Connection. Learn more about the old 78th at: http://www.78ohio.org

SBH
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 1:28:49 PM

You call it stability. I call it stasis. By all means, let's add to the millions we've paid someone just so he can finally start to get it right after 5 years. Even by Jeff's own account, we're finally seeing improvement in recruiting...in Year 5.

Plus, I swear it was you who admitted that Saul has completely mismanaged the PG position during his tenure. Yeah, by all means let's give him another $2.5 mill.

If Saul is renewed, I'll end my 20-plus years as a season ticket holder.

Last Edited: 3/8/2019 1:38:23 PM by SBH

Kevin Finnegan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 1:37:27 PM

I feel as though a change is needed on all fronts. The program is stale, and we need somebody to come in and infuse some energy to the program. Without a change, I feel as though we will continue to lose fans from the Convo and our team will fade into obscurity. I'm of the mindset that a change is necessary, though I am not in the angry mob grouping. I just feel as though we need to make the difficult decision and move on.

100%Cat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 1:49:19 PM

SBH wrote:

I'll start this by saying I'm 100% on the fence, teetering both ways. I think Saul has had a horrible run of luck, but I am also not happy with where we are right now. Results are results, but it's also not like we don't have or haven't had any talent brought in by this staff, either. Tony Campbell wasn't a Saul recruit, but did he not blossom under this staff? He brought in Jaaron who broke Cooper's single season assist record. Jordan Dartis, if he plays another year, likely will go down as the all time leader in made 3's at Ohio. Carter has been very good. Preston and BVP look very promising for freshmen. James Gollon was looking like a very solid player before getting hurt. Ryan Taylor, had he not transferred closer to home, would have been a star here (starred at Evansville and now is playing big minutes in the Big Ten). He brought in Kenny Kaminski. He transformed Mike Laster and Treg Setty into very good and beloved MAC players. But, results are results, and seasons like this certainly sting.

All that said, we tend to think of Saul's time at NDSU as being very good, but he had just one 20-win season in the first 5 years. In years 6 and 7, 24 wins and 26 wins (including the Oklahoma NCAA upset). He did make one other NCAA tourney in Year 2, that's the difference in the first 5 years there vs here. If we cut ties with him after 5 years, could we be making the move too soon and missing out on some good years? You can't say it's not possible.

I guess I'm in the position that I can accept whatever happens. If he gets another short deal, I can see why. There's young talent here that seems to have a lot of upside, and Buffalo is going to be coming back to the pack. There's no way they won't given the players (and potentially coach) they will lose after this year. Who else in the MAC truly scares you? BG? Given the year we have had, in 80 minutes vs BG this year, we were as good or better than them for 75% of those two games. One bad half at BG. I don't see the rest of the MAC (outside Buffalo currently) that feels light years ahead of us. On the other hand, it's not been a fun last two years and if it's decided to go in another direction, I won't have a problem with that, either. It's a results business, and the results haven't been there in the last two seasons. Fresh blood might breathe some fire into the program that hasn't felt present since Jaaron famously dribbled out the clock on his way to the Michigan pine.

OhioCatFan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 1:58:49 PM

If I had my druthers, I'd fire Schaus and keep Phillips.

brucecuth
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 2:07:29 PM

I would not agree that recruiting is on an uptrend. Although McDay looks promising, Wight did not have one other D-1 offer. It's pretty clear he's a project. Look at the Culver kid a couple years ago, transferred out to a Juco for one year, and I can find no record of him moving back to a D-1 program. Gareri transferred to a D-3 program. Zach Butler left for a Juco. We are bringing in too many "wish-and-hope" type kids who won't have meaningful impact and, as it turns out, nobody else wants. If that's Saul's philosophy, then it requires a staff that's really good at player development. I am certainly not sold on this staff in that regard.

Say we do retain Saul. How long a contract will he want? A single additional year means it will again be difficult for him to recruit. Multi-year? That would appear, based on what we've seen, to be as big a risk as bringing in someone new.

Bobcat Debate 73
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 2:19:59 PM

OhioCatFan wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

+1

Very well stated, Jeff!

I am with Jeff and OhioCatFan on this. He recently beat one of my favorite OHIO coaches, Groce, and frankly not renewing him will cause additional disruption to a program that has been beset with injuries and the poor decision of Simmons, for himself and OHIO, to transfer.

shabamon
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 2:22:23 PM

I'm on the fence myself. A month ago, I was in the fire camp. I believe there has been only one true dud season in his time here and that was 2015. I predicted before the 2016 season that we would have ups and downs early on, and we did, but by the end of the year we were a well-oiled machine. I truly believe that we are at least in the NIT in 2017 if Tony doesn't go down.

You simply can't avoid the topic of injuries the last two years. I don't remember last year feeling that we were bad, just overwhelmed by the circumstances. It hasn't only been Tony, Jason, and Jordan. Depth guys have been up and down, and it has to be hard to gameplan your own strategy when you don't know who's going to be able to go the next game. Injuries to Laster, BVP, Mickle, Gareri, McMurray, and Gollon hurt too. I'm sorry, but you cannot get the most out of practices when you can't even have a 5 on 5 scrimmage of scholarship players.

I enjoyed watching us play the last half of 2016 and the first half of 2017, the last time we were truly healthy. I think getting back to that point is possible under Saul

Last Edited: 3/8/2019 2:34:08 PM by shabamon

oldkatz
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 3:21:58 PM

To paraphrase a respected source, the overall basketball culture of the program has been very good, despite the injuries and losses. There has been no locker room drama, no court cases, and no academic problems.

I have stated before that Saul Phillips is a great fit for Athens, on campus and in the community. I agree with Jeff.

"All my inside sources tell me I have no inside sources." Salvatore "money bucks" Mafiosiano.

Recovering Journalist
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 3:48:09 PM

oldkatz wrote:

What if all of that was true and the losing MAC record had been produced by Jim Christian? Would you all still be advocating for him?

I understand why people go to bad for Saul. He's really, really nice and his family is great. Representing the school and community well is indeed a component of the job, as is running a clean program. But we all know that he's not getting $550,000 a year for that stuff. He got the big salary to win big games, and he hasn't produced. He's certainly had bad luck, but he's made a ton of bad luck on his own with lackluster recruits, poor adapability and some seriously questionable strategy.

I guess I'm not shocked that he has so many fans, especially locally, but his results are not where they need to be. Change is needed.

Ted Thompson
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 4:04:12 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Here's his KenPom rankings for the 5 years here:

2015 - 232

2016 - 141

2017 - 105

2018 - 193

2019 - 182

There is no indication that next year's team will even be better than this year's squad. They are staring at a MASSIVE hole at the 5-spot for next year. Now that we're at the point with just his guys in the program, Ohio is a 190-ish program. He/his staff simply never recruited well enough. That includes retention (Ryan Taylor, Jaaron Simmons) and HS recruiting (we can argue over misses but the fact is there weren't enough hits).

If you did retain him, do you give him another 2 years? Because if you only give him one year, he's in the same lame duck dilemma he's been in this past year. Not good for him or the program. There's just no way he gets retained. Makes me sad but it's the right move.

Follow Ohio Football recruiting on the BobcatAttack.com football recruiting database.

Bobcat1998
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 4:17:04 PM

100%Cat wrote:

SBH wrote:

Delusional much? He did not help Laster. In fact he held Laster back. Look at the scenarios by which Mike blossomed. He had to wait for transfers or injuries to get on the court soph and jr year.

FearLeon
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 4:40:29 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Respect your opinion and passion....but this would be a huge mistake. Saul had five years to build this thing and in year five we are last in the MAC East. He's a nice guy...wonderful family...I get it. But he gets paid a lot of money to win big and he didn't win anything.

#BleedGreen #TrentIsGOAT

BobcatSports
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 5:17:35 PM

I just don�t see any scenario where Saul is retained/extended. This roster does not possess Buffalo type type talent that is just young but needs more time to develop. It�s a roster that looks mid to lower tier MAC level. Schaus hired Saul with the expectation that we would be upper tier MAC level.

That obviously hasn�t been the case and yes the injuries have been major contributors to the less than hoped for results. Schaus also has to be scrutinized and expected to be responsible for these results as well. I liken this whole scenario to be comparable to the James Collins Good to Great business books. His philosophy is to make a business decision when necessary not whose face it is behind the desk. When you decide you have hired the wrong guy for your business the best course of action is to get that person off the bus as quickly as possible. It�s the fairest thing to do for both the business as well as to the employee you need to part company with. It allows both entities to get on with their lives as quickly as possible.

This in no way implies that the person (Saul) was/is a bad person but just not the right fit at this particular time. Like it not Schaus� decision is simply a business decision not an emotional one.

OUVan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 6:05:37 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I usually agree with most things you post but not this. As I've said many times I think the talent is fine but he keeps trotting TK out there as his main ball handler and that's something I just can't understand. Combined that with the year of Bean and Jaaron's second year and I don't trust Saul to be able to get his players to play the game the way he wants it played. A stable, steady decline is not the kind of stability I want to see. I'll root for him if he gets rehired but I think it's time to go another direction.

Buck.Cat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 6:18:27 PM

Making a statement like 'recruiting is upticking' is such an irresponsible statement. Are people watching this season in some alternate reality? We literally had a player transfer out in the off season to a lower division. We recruit players with 0 or a handful offers and those teams aren't exactly the kings of college basketball. This program has been on a rapid decline several seasons now and it's not going to stop until a new hire is made.

Gman
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 6:56:33 PM

Not sure what's so special about Saul, sure he's a good family man and person but he's been here 5 years and won absolutely nothing, plus has got paid a lot of money in the process, Saul was brought to Ohio to WIN and he has failed to do so, I just can't see Schaus retaining him, If he was gonna keep Saul he would of already signed him to an extension.

Saul Phillips will be the 1st Ohio coach that has been here for at least a 5 yr tenure and not make the MAC Championship game. Let that sink in.

D.A.
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 7:10:46 PM

Ted Thompson wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

I think you're kind of playing both sides of the fence here. It's easy to say Retain Saul when he has essentially already (by virtue of his non-renewal) been fired. I don't feel great about saying that because if I could build a coach for Ohio University it would be Saul. But you have to win basketball games.
Here's his KenPom rankings for the 5 years here:
2015 - 232
2016 - 141
2017 - 105
2018 - 193
2019 - 182
There is no indication that next year's team will even be better than this year's squad. They are staring at a MASSIVE hole at the 5-spot for next year. Now that we're at the point with just his guys in the program, Ohio is a 190-ish program. He/his staff simply never recruited well enough. That includes retention (Ryan Taylor, Jaaron Simmons) and HS recruiting (we can argue over misses but the fact is there weren't enough hits).
If you did retain him, do you give him another 2 years? Because if you only give him one year, he's in the same lame duck dilemma he's been in this past year. Not good for him or the program. There's just no way he gets retained. Makes me sad but it's the right move.

The Few, The Proud, The Bobcats!

And for the record, I hate tOSU, and Ricordati and Torgerson are DB's.

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Broomball @ Midnight!
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 7:49:21 PM

Bobcat Debate 73 wrote:

OhioCatFan wrote:

Jeff McKinney wrote:

+1

Very well stated, Jeff!

And where can you find Groce in the current MAC East standings compared to Saul?

Saul inherited NDSU's Gary Trent in Ben Woodside, and how'd he keep it going (two down years as he recruited for his team) before his agent hoodwinked us to be the highest paid coach in the MAC.

Now for how this has played out so far. A year ago the AD had three options... raise the money to buy Saul out, find the money and support for an extension, and let's have lame duck. When there is no money or support, you get lame duck and a dead building for Fiami.

Saul is a great guy, well paid, and will land on his feet.... I'm against keeping mediocrity, and calling it mediocrity is a stretch right now, in this program.

Nee wasn't Saul-level likable, is anyone, but he did job 1... win!

You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

greencat
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 8:17:30 PM

Buck.Cat wrote:

Is Ellis Dozier even still playing basketball? Is Nate Springs really a D-1 player on any level? T. James - 18% from three and 33% at the FT line.

You call that recruiting? Sounds like a recipe for finishing in last place.

To quote the a.d. in the "Blue Chips" movie...
"the kids are playing as hard as they can, they just don't have the talent"

I vote for bringing in a new staff.

Casper71
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 8:20:01 PM

No thanks.

cbus cat fan
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 9:47:20 PM

Jeff McKinney wrote:

Earlier today I received an e-mail from a guy with whom I would on occasion go to Ohio Bobcat games. He went on a tirade about Jeff not caring about what he was suppose to uphold. I will spare you the colorful language, but to say he was mad was putting it mildly. I haven't posted here in a couple of weeks because I have been busy. I have only been able to listen to the games. I hadn't the slightest clue what he was talking about until I pulled up Bobcat Attack, while listening to the game at home. My reaction was more of disbelief. It was honestly one of the most jaw dropping posts I have ever read here. Utter disbelief. Here are some random--rambling--stream of conscientious points for Jeff and those who concur with his analysis on retaining Coach Phillips.

1. Maybe I am not keeping up with the times. However, whatever happened to accountability, especially if you are one of the highest paid public servants in the State of Ohio? Was it wrong to fire Coach Billy Hahn? He was a helluva nice guy. I remember going to Mass at Christ the King in Athens and when Coach Nee went to Mass he ducked in and ducked out, being as indiscreet as possible. Coach Hahn, on the other hand (who I don't believe was Catholic but went with his wife to church) would hold the door for everyone and even chat about upcoming games in the parking lot. I am guessing he would have been a helluva fun guy to have a beer with, but does that mean I would rather have him than Coach Nee?

2. Honestly, I wonder if some folks here must like to hang out at the Bobcat Club and schmooze with the powers that be, or maybe winning isn't really a big deal--kinda like when my kids were on the 2nd or 3rd grade soccer team. Us parents were glad they learned the game, and how to behave and thanked the coaches whether they won or lost. Perhaps coming back to Athens is the main reason you pay attention to Bobcat sports because of the pleasant memories it bring back and win or lose you don't care, just as long as you stroll down Court Street, pop into the Convo and have a drink or two after the game. I am being as honest as I can be because the whole thing is just a mystery to me. I am just trying to figure out what would possess someone to applaud mediocrity?

3. Coach Danny Nee had the team going in the right direction after year three. The late Coach Rick Majerus had a horrible Ball State team turned around in his 2nd year going 29-3. Another Coach gone too early, Charlie Coles had teams with far less talent than this team do much better. Doesn't that mean anything to you guys? Isn't that something we should strive to be? For God Sakes, I don't want to end up like Bowling Green or Toledo where Rocket fans still talk about Steve Mix or Harvey Knuckles and Bowling Green fans talk about Nate Thurmond and Antonio Daniels because there hasn't been much else to discuss. Do we want to end up like Eastern Michigan. Do they even have a message board and does anyone even post there? What is the point of a having a varsity program if it is treated like a club team by those who are supposedly promoting it? If winning or losing isn't such a big deal with some of you, we could save the taxpayers a ton of money and just go club sports.

4. Do you really get excited about beating a horrible Miami team and telling everyone the moribund Convo is much more exciting than it was when we were getting beat by teams we should have been blowing out earlier in the year? Doesn't it make you upset seeing the direction of the program compared to where it was earlier this decade or where it was 35 years ago? What about the empty seats that once held raucous fans, not to mention the number of posters who have disappeared into the mists of Bobcat Attack History. If by chance some miracle occurred and Coach Phillips had another year on his contract would you want it extended this time next year if some unfortunate injury should occur and we were told we would have been so much better if player x didn't get hurt? I feel like I am watching Lucy beg Charlie Brown to try and kick the football one more time. Coach Phillips is a good man, perhaps a year off, or a year as an assistant can have him come to grips with what just happened. Coach Solich said the year he took off helped him immeasurably be a better coach here at Ohio. All I know is that I don't want to endure this spectacle any longer.

Last Edited: 3/8/2019 10:19:49 PM by cbus cat fan

allen
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 9:53:46 PM

I don�t think that he is the guy for Ohio, I surely wish him well. The conference will continue to improve and we will still raid Hocking�s recruiting board for players like Wight. We have no plan for next year with average to poor on ball defenders and no rim protector with Taylor leaving. Saul would have to come up with a winning strategy and I don�t believe that he can. If we do extend him, it should be only a one year extension to avoid buying him out in the future.

Nobody despises to lose more than I do. That's got me into trouble over the years, but it also made a man of mediocre ability into a pretty good coach. Woody Hayes

Broomball @ Midnight!
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RE: Retain Coach Phillips

Posted: 3/8/2019 9:56:50 PM

At least Jim knows how I feel about the sad state of Bobcat basketball.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate your time in doing so. I do understand your frustration when the team is not consistently winning. The women�s team has indeed had an outstanding season.

Thanks again for letting me know how you feel.

Jim

You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club. - Crash Davis (1988)

BS Ohio '88 - MA Florida '92 - PhD Florida '10

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