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Topic:  Post Article on Free College Tuiton

Topic:  Post Article on Free College Tuiton
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/19/2016 9:06:22 AM 
There's an article in today's (9/19) The Post about Mrs. Clinton's free college tuition proposal.

The article,which includes comments from Dr. Vedder,points out a number of "issues" with the concept,including an income threshold of $125,000 per year.

Everything I've heard talks about free "in state" tuition at public universities.

I wonder how that would work for an out of state student ?

Would they pay 100% of the cost for an out of state student,or the difference in cost between in state and out of state tuition ?

From reading the article,the biggest problem with the idea is,as a number of people have said since it was first "floated" by Bernie, how/who funds it.


Last Edited: 9/19/2016 9:14:07 AM by rpbobcat
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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,778

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/19/2016 11:07:34 AM 
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in today's (9/19) The Post about Mrs. Clinton's free college tuition proposal.

The article,which includes comments from Dr. Vedder,points out a number of "issues" with the concept,including an income threshold of $125,000 per year.

Everything I've heard talks about free "in state" tuition at public universities.

I wonder how that would work for an out of state student ?

Would they pay 100% of the cost for an out of state student,or the difference in cost between in state and out of state tuition ?

From reading the article,the biggest problem with the idea is,as a number of people have said since it was first "floated" by Bernie, how/who funds it.




Ohio as a State is one of the most expensive for public higher education, this is brought about by decades of neglect by governmental leadership. The only good news here is that we went up so drastically 15-20 years ago that we have stablized a bit the past 5-6 years in the rapid rise of cost. However, this rate of tuition increases is not sustainable.

https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-t...
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Mike Johnson
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Member Since: 11/11/2004
Location: North Canton, OH
Post Count: 1,719

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/19/2016 3:50:16 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
There's an article in today's (9/19) The Post about Mrs. Clinton's free college tuition proposal.

The article,which includes comments from Dr. Vedder,points out a number of "issues" with the concept,including an income threshold of $125,000 per year.

Everything I've heard talks about free "in state" tuition at public universities.

I wonder how that would work for an out of state student ?

Would they pay 100% of the cost for an out of state student,or the difference in cost between in state and out of state tuition ?

From reading the article,the biggest problem with the idea is,as a number of people have said since it was first "floated" by Bernie, how/who funds it.




Ohio as a State is one of the most expensive for public higher education, this is brought about by decades of neglect by governmental leadership. The only good news here is that we went up so drastically 15-20 years ago that we have stablized a bit the past 5-6 years in the rapid rise of cost. However, this rate of tuition increases is not sustainable.

https://trends.collegeboard.org/college-pricing/figures-t...


Some years ago TIME magazine showed a 2-page map of the U.S. and inside each state showed in-state tuition for state-assisted schools AND per capita support for in-state students. At that time, Ohio was the second most expensive of the 50 states and provided the second lowest per capita support.

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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TWT
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Alexandria, VA
Post Count: 4,998

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/19/2016 10:43:06 PM 
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.

Most Memorable Bobcat Events Attended
2010 97-83 win over Georgetown in NCAA 1st round
2012 45-13 victory over ULM in the Independence Bowl
2015 34-3 drubbing of Miami @ Peden front of 25,086

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BillyTheCat
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Member Since: 10/6/2012
Post Count: 9,778

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/19/2016 11:18:39 PM 
Uncle Wes wrote:
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.


For many the high GPA and test scores still are not cutting the tuition bill to affordable. Fact is here in Ohio we have seriously underfunded public higher education. When only 30% of the population has college degrees yet student loan debt is the largest debt of Americans today after home loans, that is a major problem, one that will hurt the economy as we go forward as money will be directed from the economy in the forms of goods and services.
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,547

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/20/2016 7:48:59 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.


For many the high GPA and test scores still are not cutting the tuition bill to affordable. Fact is here in Ohio we have seriously underfunded public higher education. When only 30% of the population has college degrees yet student loan debt is the largest debt of Americans today after home loans, that is a major problem, one that will hurt the economy as we go forward as money will be directed from the economy in the forms of goods and services.


I know its its been talked about before,but its worth repeating.

According to a number of articles I've read,a big reason for students incurring a significant debt from student loans is their wanting to have the "college experience".That is, going to a large "big name" college,living away from home,enjoying the social life, etc.
This increases direct costs.But can also,in a number of cases,also increase the time it takes to get a degree.More costs.

By taking your "core" classes at a Community College and commuting to a public university to complete your degree,students can graduate with minimal if any debt.

I know my niece and a lot of my friends' kids did it.
Plus,without all the "distractions",they got their degrees in roughly 4 years.




Last Edited: 9/20/2016 8:53:14 AM by rpbobcat
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DelBobcat
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Member Since: 8/26/2010
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Post Count: 1,135

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/23/2016 1:15:13 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.


For many the high GPA and test scores still are not cutting the tuition bill to affordable. Fact is here in Ohio we have seriously underfunded public higher education. When only 30% of the population has college degrees yet student loan debt is the largest debt of Americans today after home loans, that is a major problem, one that will hurt the economy as we go forward as money will be directed from the economy in the forms of goods and services.


I know its its been talked about before,but its worth repeating.

According to a number of articles I've read,a big reason for students incurring a significant debt from student loans is their wanting to have the "college experience".That is, going to a large "big name" college,living away from home,enjoying the social life, etc.
This increases direct costs.But can also,in a number of cases,also increase the time it takes to get a degree.More costs.

By taking your "core" classes at a Community College and commuting to a public university to complete your degree,students can graduate with minimal if any debt.

I know my niece and a lot of my friends' kids did it.
Plus,without all the "distractions",they got their degrees in roughly 4 years.






Actually a big part of the student debt crisis is the fact that many students are starting at community colleges and for-profits, either in person or online, and not finishing a degree at all, but they're still stuck with the debt. Those students that have the "college experience" at a university like OU are much more likely to actually finish their degree and be able to handle the debt they've incurred. I saw it with my own family member, who bounced back and forth from Shawnee State and and UC branch campus while living at home, and never finished.

From Pew:

"Thirty-eight percent of two-year college students who started to repay their loans in 2009 defaulted within five years, as did 47 percent of for-profit college students, said a September study led by Adam Looney, an economist at the Treasury Department. Just 10 percent of students who attended selective four-year colleges defaulted over the same period."

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/s...

And another source, pointing out the for-profits, dropouts, and graduate degrees account for a lot of the debt.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/06/08/heaviest-c...

Also, students with the traditional "college experience" are actually MORE likely to finish on time because they generally take more credits at one time than students that live at home and commute. One study showed that overall public colleges graduated 19% of students in four years, but selective colleges (more likely to be residential campuses) graduated 36% in four years.

BA OHIO 2010, BS OHIO 2010, MA Delaware 2012
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,547

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/23/2016 2:07:03 PM 
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.


For many the high GPA and test scores still are not cutting the tuition bill to affordable. Fact is here in Ohio we have seriously underfunded public higher education. When only 30% of the population has college degrees yet student loan debt is the largest debt of Americans today after home loans, that is a major problem, one that will hurt the economy as we go forward as money will be directed from the economy in the forms of goods and services.


I know its its been talked about before,but its worth repeating.

According to a number of articles I've read,a big reason for students incurring a significant debt from student loans is their wanting to have the "college experience".That is, going to a large "big name" college,living away from home,enjoying the social life, etc.
This increases direct costs.But can also,in a number of cases,also increase the time it takes to get a degree.More costs.

By taking your "core" classes at a Community College and commuting to a public university to complete your degree,students can graduate with minimal if any debt.

I know my niece and a lot of my friends' kids did it.
Plus,without all the "distractions",they got their degrees in roughly 4 years.






Actually a big part of the student debt crisis is the fact that many students are starting at community colleges and for-profits, either in person or online, and not finishing a degree at all, but they're still stuck with the debt. Those students that have the "college experience" at a university like OU are much more likely to actually finish their degree and be able to handle the debt they've incurred. I saw it with my own family member, who bounced back and forth from Shawnee State and and UC branch campus while living at home, and never finished.

From Pew:

"Thirty-eight percent of two-year college students who started to repay their loans in 2009 defaulted within five years, as did 47 percent of for-profit college students, said a September study led by Adam Looney, an economist at the Treasury Department. Just 10 percent of students who attended selective four-year colleges defaulted over the same period."

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/s...

And another source, pointing out the for-profits, dropouts, and graduate degrees account for a lot of the debt.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/06/08/heaviest-c...

Also, students with the traditional "college experience" are actually MORE likely to finish on time because they generally take more credits at one time than students that live at home and commute. One study showed that overall public colleges graduated 19% of students in four years, but selective colleges (more likely to be residential campuses) graduated 36% in four years.


I wasn't referring to the total amount of student loan debt nationwide.
To me that isn't want matters.
What matters is how much of a loan "I" have to pay back.

Debt is debt.
Whether you finish a degree or not,you have to pay off your loans.

What I was saying was that,having the "college experience" costs more.
Whether you graduate or not,the more loans you need,the more deb you incur and have to pay back.

The only thing I see a relevant, as it pertains to getting a degree or not,is that,with a degree,depending of course on what its in,you're more able to pay off loans.



Last Edited: 9/23/2016 3:44:32 PM by rpbobcat
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Kevin Finnegan
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Member Since: 2/4/2005
Location: Rockton, IL
Post Count: 1,114

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/23/2016 5:06:45 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.


For many the high GPA and test scores still are not cutting the tuition bill to affordable. Fact is here in Ohio we have seriously underfunded public higher education. When only 30% of the population has college degrees yet student loan debt is the largest debt of Americans today after home loans, that is a major problem, one that will hurt the economy as we go forward as money will be directed from the economy in the forms of goods and services.


I know its its been talked about before,but its worth repeating.

According to a number of articles I've read,a big reason for students incurring a significant debt from student loans is their wanting to have the "college experience".That is, going to a large "big name" college,living away from home,enjoying the social life, etc.
This increases direct costs.But can also,in a number of cases,also increase the time it takes to get a degree.More costs.

By taking your "core" classes at a Community College and commuting to a public university to complete your degree,students can graduate with minimal if any debt.

I know my niece and a lot of my friends' kids did it.
Plus,without all the "distractions",they got their degrees in roughly 4 years.






Actually a big part of the student debt crisis is the fact that many students are starting at community colleges and for-profits, either in person or online, and not finishing a degree at all, but they're still stuck with the debt. Those students that have the "college experience" at a university like OU are much more likely to actually finish their degree and be able to handle the debt they've incurred. I saw it with my own family member, who bounced back and forth from Shawnee State and and UC branch campus while living at home, and never finished.

From Pew:

"Thirty-eight percent of two-year college students who started to repay their loans in 2009 defaulted within five years, as did 47 percent of for-profit college students, said a September study led by Adam Looney, an economist at the Treasury Department. Just 10 percent of students who attended selective four-year colleges defaulted over the same period."

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/s...

And another source, pointing out the for-profits, dropouts, and graduate degrees account for a lot of the debt.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/06/08/heaviest-c...

Also, students with the traditional "college experience" are actually MORE likely to finish on time because they generally take more credits at one time than students that live at home and commute. One study showed that overall public colleges graduated 19% of students in four years, but selective colleges (more likely to be residential campuses) graduated 36% in four years.


I wasn't referring to the total amount of student loan debt nationwide.
To me that isn't want matters.
What matters is how much of a loan "I" have to pay back.

Debt is debt.
Whether you finish a degree or not,you have to pay off your loans.

What I was saying was that,having the "college experience" costs more.
Whether you graduate or not,the more loans you need,the more deb you incur and have to pay back.

The only thing I see a relevant, as it pertains to getting a degree or not,is that,with a degree,depending of course on what its in,you're more able to pay off loans.





RP, the problem is, you're looking at something anecdotally. DelBobcat is bringing in facts and figures of the matter. If we are talking about policy from local, state, or national government, the facts and figures should drive the discussion, not the anecdotes.

I know it sounds folksy and fun, but I hate when I hear a politician say, "I met a mill worker yesterday who said..." That shouldn't drive your decision-making. You shouldn't be swayed by a story or two. The solutions should be tailored to the actual/factual issues.
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,547

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/24/2016 10:32:35 AM 
I'm not being anecdotal.
My comments are based on friends and relatives whose kids were able to get a 4 year degree,in their field of study, with virtually no debt.

I'm not an economist.I don't understand the why the total amount of student debt is significant. To me it just shows how much debt students are racking up.

The student debt "crisis" seems to be just a lot of individuals taking out a lot of loans.

How you pursue your higher education will affect how much debt you incur and how much you owe.

I would have loved to go for my Masters full time.
I didn't want to take out loans to do it.

So, after getting my B.S., I went to work full time and took my Masters classes at night.

It took a bit longer, but I came out debt free.

If you decide go for a degree by taking out loans, you have the responsibility to know what you're getting into and to know what it will take to pay them off.

What I find amazing is how many people sign financing documents without reading or understanding them.

To me, it all comes down to personal responsibility.
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BillyTheCat
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Post Count: 9,778

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 8:16:09 AM 
Not everyone can afford to go to college debt free, just because that has been your experience and that of a few family members does not mean that the real world is the same for everyone else.
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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,547

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 10:12:58 AM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Not everyone can afford to go to college debt free, just because that has been your experience and that of a few family members does not mean that the real world is the same for everyone else.


I'm not saying everyone who decides they want to go to college will come out debt free.
There are, however, options available to reduce the cost of getting a degree and correspondingly the amount of loans you take out.

I'm also saying that, should you choose to take out loans, it is up to you to know what you're getting into, including the responsibility to pay them off.

As I said before, no one forces you to take out a loan. You have to go into it with your eyes open.
You're an adult "I didn't know what I was getting into" just doesn't cut it.
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,072

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 11:22:23 AM 
Not a fan of free college education. All that money will only bloat already bloated administrations. Did you see all the assistants deans of this and assistant directors of that when they introduced the one year MBA folks at the game yesterday. The single greatest cause of administrative bloat is easy tuition dollars - called financial aid - in the form of loans. You can't just keep spending money.

Also, if keeping the aid is dependent upon grade point, grade inflation will just get worse and worse.
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rpbobcat
General User

Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
Post Count: 3,547

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 12:14:45 PM 
Alan Swank wrote:
Not a fan of free college education. All that money will only bloat already bloated administrations. Did you see all the assistants deans of this and assistant directors of that when they introduced the one year MBA folks at the game yesterday. The single greatest cause of administrative bloat is easy tuition dollars - called financial aid - in the form of loans. You can't just keep spending money.

Also, if keeping the aid is dependent upon grade point, grade inflation will just get worse and worse.


Allan:
I agree 100%.

As I've I said before, I chair F.D.U.'s Industrial Advisory Committee For Civil and Construction Engineering Technology.
When I first started working with the committee I couldn't believe how many "layers" of administration there were. Both within the College of Engineering and the University as whole.
To this day I can't figure out what 1/2 -3/4 of the administrators do.

I also couldn't believe how few classes full time professors taught.

Grade inflation is out of control.
Its gotten so bad that the organization that accredits engineering programs (A.B.E.T.) will no longer allow you to use grades as a means to evaluate students' performance. A University must develop, and have approved, an objective means to evaluate exactly what engineering students are learning.

One way is using something called a "rubric".
The educators on the committee love them. The non educator members are not as enthusiastic.We feel that, although somewhat more difficult to manipulate then grades, Rubrics can still be other then objective.
That's one reason the non educators on the committee have pushed for having all graduating seniors take the Fundamentals of Engineering licensing exam.

This approach is 100% objective.Plus, the tests are graded by category so you can see the strengths and weaknesses of your program and professors.
You can also compare your scores with other schools.


Last Edited: 9/25/2016 12:17:43 PM by rpbobcat
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Monroe Slavin
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Member Since: 12/20/2004
Location: Oxnard, CA
Post Count: 9,121

Status: Offline
  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 12:16:17 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.


For many the high GPA and test scores still are not cutting the tuition bill to affordable. Fact is here in Ohio we have seriously underfunded public higher education. When only 30% of the population has college degrees yet student loan debt is the largest debt of Americans today after home loans, that is a major problem, one that will hurt the economy as we go forward as money will be directed from the economy in the forms of goods and services.


I know its its been talked about before,but its worth repeating.

According to a number of articles I've read,a big reason for students incurring a significant debt from student loans is their wanting to have the "college experience".That is, going to a large "big name" college,living away from home,enjoying the social life, etc.
This increases direct costs.But can also,in a number of cases,also increase the time it takes to get a degree.More costs.

By taking your "core" classes at a Community College and commuting to a public university to complete your degree,students can graduate with minimal if any debt.

I know my niece and a lot of my friends' kids did it.
Plus,without all the "distractions",they got their degrees in roughly 4 years.






Actually a big part of the student debt crisis is the fact that many students are starting at community colleges and for-profits, either in person or online, and not finishing a degree at all, but they're still stuck with the debt. Those students that have the "college experience" at a university like OU are much more likely to actually finish their degree and be able to handle the debt they've incurred. I saw it with my own family member, who bounced back and forth from Shawnee State and and UC branch campus while living at home, and never finished.

From Pew:

"Thirty-eight percent of two-year college students who started to repay their loans in 2009 defaulted within five years, as did 47 percent of for-profit college students, said a September study led by Adam Looney, an economist at the Treasury Department. Just 10 percent of students who attended selective four-year colleges defaulted over the same period."

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/s...

And another source, pointing out the for-profits, dropouts, and graduate degrees account for a lot of the debt.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/06/08/heaviest-c...

Also, students with the traditional "college experience" are actually MORE likely to finish on time because they generally take more credits at one time than students that live at home and commute. One study showed that overall public colleges graduated 19% of students in four years, but selective colleges (more likely to be residential campuses) graduated 36% in four years.


I wasn't referring to the total amount of student loan debt nationwide.
To me that isn't want matters.
What matters is how much of a loan "I" have to pay back.

Debt is debt.
Whether you finish a degree or not,you have to pay off your loans.

What I was saying was that,having the "college experience" costs more.
Whether you graduate or not,the more loans you need,the more deb you incur and have to pay back.

The only thing I see a relevant, as it pertains to getting a degree or not,is that,with a degree,depending of course on what its in,you're more able to pay off loans.





Your last remark about 'able to pay off loans' makes no sense in light of the above Pew statistics.

The stats clearly show that 'college experience' students (as you call them) are more likely to pay off their loans.


You have the right to your opinion. You can dispute the statistics if you want or you can provide other facts.

But if you're not going to be logical about this, if you are not going to have an open mind, then why join this discussion?

Okay, now attack me instead of responding to the inconsistency of what you're saying vs. the statistics stated.



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Mike Johnson
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Location: North Canton, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 12:44:53 PM 
rpbobcat wrote:
Alan Swank wrote:
Not a fan of free college education. All that money will only bloat already bloated administrations. Did you see all the assistants deans of this and assistant directors of that when they introduced the one year MBA folks at the game yesterday. The single greatest cause of administrative bloat is easy tuition dollars - called financial aid - in the form of loans. You can't just keep spending money.

Also, if keeping the aid is dependent upon grade point, grade inflation will just get worse and worse.


Allan:
I agree 100%.

As I've I said before, I chair F.D.U.'s Industrial Advisory Committee For Civil and Construction Engineering Technology.
When I first started working with the committee I couldn't believe how many "layers" of administration there were. Both within the College of Engineering and the University as whole.
To this day I can't figure out what 1/2 -3/4 of the administrators do.

I also couldn't believe how few classes full time professors taught.

Grade inflation is out of control.
Its gotten so bad that the organization that accredits engineering programs (A.B.E.T.) will no longer allow you to use grades as a means to evaluate students' performance. A University must develop, and have approved, an objective means to evaluate exactly what engineering students are learning.

One way is using something called a "rubric".
The educators on the committee love them. The non educator members are not as enthusiastic.We feel that, although somewhat more difficult to manipulate then grades, Rubrics can still be other then objective.
That's one reason the non educators on the committee have pushed for having all graduating seniors take the Fundamentals of Engineering licensing exam.

This approach is 100% objective.Plus, the tests are graded by category so you can see the strengths and weaknesses of your program and professors.
You can also compare your scores with other schools.



Make that two of us who agree 100%.

From 1990-2005 I guest-proffed often at Ohio for several profs. I remember the first time discussion of grade inflation came up. Said one prof bluntly, "It's about fear. Professors fearing student wrath and its influence on their careers."

Re administrative bloat. It's also pretty common in business. I recall many instances during good economic times sitting in our senior exec monthly meetings. Someone would say, "I see a good opportunity for more growth in my sector. To make it happen I'll be adding a couple more managers." Seldom did anyone question such pronouncements. Why? They knew they could well be making their own such pronouncements. Of course when an up-cycle inevitably slid into a down-cycle, out came the chopping block. Question for those closer to academia: When financial difficulties arise in universities, does the chopping block come out?

http://www.facebook.com/mikejohnson.author

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 12:51:05 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
DelBobcat wrote:
rpbobcat wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Uncle Wes wrote:
The scholarship system that gives students incentives to finish with a high GPA and standardized scores. If everyone who was from a family under 126k was given free tuition instead of parents getting back into the workforce to pay for tuition they'd be quitting their jobs to fit under the salary cap. With the free community college tuition its geared toward families making less than 50k and from under resourced populations. Free tuition doesn't do anything to address the cost of university housing where they are making a killing. The performance based distribution of state funding for higher ed. is a welcome change and putting pressure on the Akron's and Youngstown State's to keep their enrollment in line with what they can graduate.


For many the high GPA and test scores still are not cutting the tuition bill to affordable. Fact is here in Ohio we have seriously underfunded public higher education. When only 30% of the population has college degrees yet student loan debt is the largest debt of Americans today after home loans, that is a major problem, one that will hurt the economy as we go forward as money will be directed from the economy in the forms of goods and services.




I know its its been talked about before,but its worth repeating.

According to a number of articles I've read,a big reason for students incurring a significant debt from student loans is their wanting to have the "college experience".That is, going to a large "big name" college,living away from home,enjoying the social life, etc.
This increases direct costs.But can also,in a number of cases,also increase the time it takes to get a degree.More costs.

By taking your "core" classes at a Community College and commuting to a public university to complete your degree,students can graduate with minimal if any debt.

I know my niece and a lot of my friends' kids did it.
Plus,without all the "distractions",they got their degrees in roughly 4 years.






Actually a big part of the student debt crisis is the fact that many students are starting at community colleges and for-profits, either in person or online, and not finishing a degree at all, but they're still stuck with the debt. Those students that have the "college experience" at a university like OU are much more likely to actually finish their degree and be able to handle the debt they've incurred. I saw it with my own family member, who bounced back and forth from Shawnee State and and UC branch campus while living at home, and never finished.

From Pew:

"Thirty-eight percent of two-year college students who started to repay their loans in 2009 defaulted within five years, as did 47 percent of for-profit college students, said a September study led by Adam Looney, an economist at the Treasury Department. Just 10 percent of students who attended selective four-year colleges defaulted over the same period."

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/s...

And another source, pointing out the for-profits, dropouts, and graduate degrees account for a lot of the debt.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/06/08/heaviest-c...

Also, students with the traditional "college experience" are actually MORE likely to finish on time because they generally take more credits at one time than students that live at home and commute. One study showed that overall public colleges graduated 19% of students in four years, but selective colleges (more likely to be residential campuses) graduated 36% in four years.


I wasn't referring to the total amount of student loan debt nationwide.
To me that isn't want matters.
What matters is how much of a loan "I" have to pay back.

Debt is debt.
Whether you finish a degree or not,you have to pay off your loans.

What I was saying was that,having the "college experience" costs more.
Whether you graduate or not,the more loans you need,the more deb you incur and have to pay back.

The only thing I see a relevant, as it pertains to getting a degree or not,is that,with a degree,depending of course on what its in,you're more able to pay off loans.





Your last remark about 'able to pay off loans' makes no sense in light of the above Pew statistics.

The stats clearly show that 'college experience' students (as you call them) are more likely to pay off their loans.


You have the right to your opinion. You can dispute the statistics if you want or you can provide other facts.

But if you're not going to be logical about this, if you are not going to have an open mind, then why join this discussion?

Okay, now attack me instead of responding to the inconsistency of what you're saying vs. the statistics stated.





Monroe:
Either you missed,or ignored, my subsequent posts on this topic.

Basically,there are ways to pursue a degree,with the objective of minimizing debt.

If you choose to take out loans to pay for your higher education, you have a responsibility to know what you're getting into.

You also have a responsibility to pay back what you borrow, under the terms you agree to.

Lastly, I've never "attacked" you.Unless you consider disagreeing with your position on something an "attack".

You're the one who posted personal insults when I took a position that was contrary to yours, especially on the current presidential race.

Last Edited: 9/25/2016 12:52:25 PM by rpbobcat
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Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 3:14:00 PM 
1) Whatever.


And see you on November 9.


2) Your point seems to be about the ability to pay back loans with an assertion that the residential campus choice leads to a decrease in ability to pay loans back. Then, a study was cited which disagrees with that point.

Anything that you've written since then does not meet thrust of that study and the way it contradicts your point.


I really should start charging you for these delineations of what happened.








Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


DesignspiritUSA.com
The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags
The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping!

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Robert Fox
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Member Since: 11/16/2004
Location: Knoxville, TN
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 4:30:17 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
1) Whatever.


And see you on November 9.


2) Your point seems to be about the ability to pay back loans with an assertion that the residential campus choice leads to a decrease in ability to pay loans back. Then, a study was cited which disagrees with that point.

Anything that you've written since then does not meet thrust of that study and the way it contradicts your point.


I really should start charging you for these delineations of what happened.










That "study" is hardly proving cause-and-effect. Does it take into account the different types of students who pursue:
1. A two-year college
2. A private college
3. A four-year university

???

From the post above, it's not clear that it does.

But go on spouting off, Monroe.
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Monroe Slavin
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Location: Oxnard, CA
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 5:22:15 PM 
Robert--

First, note that I've not taken a position on any side here. I've merely questioned an assertion which seems to be blown up by a study.

I didn't in any way say that the study is conclusive. I do say that it's conclusive until better evidence is presented or the study is discredited.


Second, your questions, within my context, appear legitimate...appear to fit my framework for further discussion.


So, you don't need to get angry at me.

If I'm a bit beefed here, it's at those who are unwavering in their positions (so, likely unthinking thoughtless...and why have any discussion if you won't consider other views?), who won't meet argument which logically meets the point which they raise, and who both won't respond to, and ignore, facts and information which run counter to their beliefs.



Here's a quick re-consideration to show you that I'm not stupid-stuck, that I practice what I preach. Seb Smith has been superb the past two games. I think that I was right that he wasn't THAT good before. But now I re-assess in light of his actual performance against UTenn and Gardner-Webb (though G-W's d-backs were not very good).


Where's the band?!
WHERE"S THE BAND?!


DesignspiritUSA.com
The Pets On The Go Collection of pet gear travel bags
The Holiday Tote Bigg Bagg Collection--over-sized, reversible, extra pockets; now love carrying packages as much as you love shopping!

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rpbobcat
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Member Since: 4/28/2006
Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 5:30:17 PM 
Monroe Slavin wrote:
1) Whatever.


And see you on November 9.


2) Your point seems to be about the ability to pay back loans with an assertion that the residential campus choice leads to a decrease in ability to pay loans back. Then, a study was cited which disagrees with that point.

Anything that you've written since then does not meet thrust of that study and the way it contradicts your point.


I really should start charging you for these delineations of what happened.



Monore:

I never said that the residential campus choice leads to a decrease in the ability to pay back a loan.

What I said was that the "college experience" usually comes with a higher cost, hence, higher debt.

What I also said was that, whether you get a degree or not, you have the responsibility to pay back the loans you take out.

There are number of ways you can pursue a degree, while at the same time, not racking up debt that will take decades to pay off.
Again comes down to personal responsibility.

Its also interesting that, unlike you , I don't resort to condescending comments to try and bolster my position on a topic.

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BillyTheCat
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 10:04:29 PM 
Like anything there would need to be reforms, but countries all over the world can manage this, to say the US cannot is a head scratcher.

Healthcare and education, two areas where we fail to look towards others for ideas.
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Alan Swank
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Location: Athens, OH
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/25/2016 10:20:16 PM 
BillyTheCat wrote:
Like anything there would need to be reforms, but countries all over the world can manage this, to say the US cannot is a head scratcher.

Healthcare and education, two areas where we fail to look towards others for ideas.


Other countries, particularly those in Europe, have a much more rigorous path to college. Many of the kids at OU would not get in to a university in Europe. They also have good paying jobs for those who do not qualify.

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rpbobcat
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Location: Rochelle Park, NJ
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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/26/2016 6:51:48 AM 
Alan Swank wrote:
BillyTheCat wrote:
Like anything there would need to be reforms, but countries all over the world can manage this, to say the US cannot is a head scratcher.

Healthcare and education, two areas where we fail to look towards others for ideas.


Other countries, particularly those in Europe, have a much more rigorous path to college. Many of the kids at OU would not get in to a university in Europe. They also have good paying jobs for those who do not qualify.



My nephew moved to Poland a few years ago.

Rigorous doesn't begin to describe the "weed out" process to get into "university".

From what he says,they start evaluating kids in grammar school.The high school you go to pretty much determines whether you even have a chance to go on from there.

As far as good paying jobs,that depends on the Country.
According to my nephew, a lot of Poles,those that aren't trying to get to the states,travel outside of Poland to work.

When he comes to visit,the issue of health care tends to come up.
Again,I can only speak to his comments on the medical system in Poland.
What he says,if you want to see a doctor in a timely manner,be prepared to pay cash "under the table".




Last Edited: 9/26/2016 6:59:47 AM by rpbobcat
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Alan Swank
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Member Since: 12/11/2004
Location: Athens, OH
Post Count: 7,072

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  Message Not Read  RE: Post Article on Free College Tuiton
   Posted: 9/26/2016 2:25:37 PM 
Intersting article in today's Post:

http://www.thepostathens.com/article/2016/09/ohio-univers...
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