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Ohio Football Recruiting

Topic: kent recruiting

Topic: kent recruiting

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Casper71
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kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 3:00:36 PM

Since they are doing so well this year, i thought I would look them up in Rivals. First, Archer (2009) was a 2 star recruit out of Florida. Then, the last four years (2008-2011) Kent has recruited like this in the MAC: 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 3rd. I guess it pays to at least be near the Top!

As for OHIO, just look at 2010 when we were rated 12th in the MAC with just 1 three star guys and you'll see why were are having some trouble now. That year just really didn't work out well. Since 2008 we have also had a 7th and a 5th to go along with our highest classes (#3) in 2009 and (#2) in 2012.

I still say we need to recuit much better. I'd take Top 4 most years. But if you think #12, #7, and #5 will get us where we'd all like to be I think you ar

Mike Coleman
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 3:50:35 PM

Man, hate to say it, but Rivals was dead on with its rating of our 2010 class. If anything the class proved to be overrated. You have a handful of current starter types, and twice as many kids who were either kicked off the team, failed out of school, never showed up, transferred without playing much, etc. It is interesting that is was the only class with Scott Isphording as recruiting coordinator. Looks like only nine of the original 17 are still on the active roster.

(We did add Donte Foster, Derek Roback, and Beau B. later on)

Last Edited: 11/19/2012 3:51:10 PM by Mike Coleman

Ohio69
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 4:53:18 PM

So Kent's new coach will have plenty of talent next fall, eh?

Can somebody hit a pull up jumper for me?.....

crackerbaby00
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 7:01:19 PM

I don't care about Kent's recruiting. I only care about what we have building here, and I like what I have seen, regardless of the last month of this season.

Bcat2
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 7:59:10 PM

Casper71 wrote:

Question. Would the 2012 group be #2 after the losses of several to junior college? Ohio will never again have a #12 class. No, 12, 7 & 5 won't cut it, however 5, 3 & 2 will. A big plus comes from Solich's and his coaches contacts who bring in transfers like Bates, Beau, Foster, Prior and Roback. The signs are that recruitng is getting better,the walk-ons produces players, these coaches can really develop players and the commitment to redshirting works. This is all how Ohio outperforms the level of it's recruiting. Hard Work! It still looks like these seniors will be Ohio's winningest ever, til next year. I hope they get to feel some love regardless how things go vs Kent.

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

L.C.
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 8:33:51 PM

Casper71 wrote:

...I still say we need to recuit much better. I'd take Top 4 most years. But if you think #12, #7, and #5 will get us where we'd all like to be I think you ar

This is a point I have tried to make on the main board, though somewhat unsuccessfully, I think, The coaching staff has done a lot with what they have to work with, and the the kids themselves are a bunch of achievers, and should be proud of what they have done. Based on raw talent, Ohio is far from the best team in the MAC, yet year after year they compete for the top. On the other hand, as you point out, the recruiting classes are getting better, and now are near to the top. If Ohio can compete with average talent, what will happen when they have near to the best talent? The program has far from peaked.

Using my raw recruiting data, which is a composite number based on various rating services, recruiting classes earned the following points on my scale:
2006 176
2007 180
2008 224
2009 238
2010 229
2011 297
2012 320
2013 will be 300+

Using my after-the-fact ratings of kids (done after they arrive and start playing) to rank the classes, instead of recruiting data, I get:
2006 2.36
2007 2.65
2008 2.93
2009 3.00
2010 2.67
2011 3.14
2012 too early to tell, but probably >3

Using Scout, Rivals rankings
2006 7th   2d
2007     9th   7th
2008     9th   7th
2009     5th   3rd
2010    12th 12th
2011    3rd    5th
2012    11th    2d

The one number I quarrel with is the Scout.com rating for Ohio's 2012 class, at 11th. Rivals had it right, as time will show. Except for that outlying piece of data, all these indicators show a steady improvement in Ohio's recruiting over the last 7 years, with the exception of the 2010 class, which was a big step backwards. The change to Haines in 2011 led to a dramatic improvement over 2010.

Most teams are made up of primarily Juniors and Seniors. This year's team consists primarily of members of the 2008-2009 classes. Averaging the Scout and Rivals numbers for those two years, you get 9,7,5,3=6th. Based on that, Ohio should be about 6th in the MAC, which is about where they are. Without the injuries, they would have been significantly higher, and that is a credit to the hard work of the players and coaches.

Mike Coleman wrote:

Man, hate to say it, but Rivals was dead on with its rating of our 2010 class.

That weak 2010 class, by the way, was the reason they took so many JUCOs the last year, trying to fill in the gap. It is also the reason why I don't see Ohio making much improvement the next couple years. I think they will still be solid, and will compete for Mac Championships, and they might win one, who knows? When the 2011-2012 classes are Juniors and Seniors, I think that is when Ohio will take the next step up, and they will better than they are today.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

BillyTheCat
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 8:34:50 PM

So are you saying by year 12 of this staff we will have a MAC title?

L.C.
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/19/2012 8:43:55 PM

I'm saying they might win one at any time. Over the last 5 years they have won more MAC games than any other team, and I expect that to continue. That may or may not result in a championship, depending on breaks. Some teams, like Buffalo and Miami, have won championships over the last 5 years, but have dismal overall records. Which program would you rather have?

My point regarding the team in a few more years is that I believe they will be more legitimately competitive on a national level. They may well be in the Top 25, and actually belong there.

I made the same kind of prediction 5 years ago, by the way, predicting that the 2011 team would be a new high level. I wrongly predicted an undefeated season in 2011, but overall I think I was more right than wrong, that it was the best team to date for Ohio.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Casper71
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 9:40:50 AM

I think most of you have gotten what I have been trying to point out on this board. This staff has NOT recruited top MAC talent. By year 8 with a very veteran coach and staff, I can't figure out why we are not there yet. If we had recruited like a kent with all classes in the top three the last four or so years, I think we have that unfinished business completed by now.

L.C.
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:55:47 AM

The recruiting classes started out very weak in the early years. There is no doubt in my mind that the lack of a winning tradition played a large part in that. The status of the facilities also probably had something to do with it. For example, Ohio will only now be starting construction of an IPF, while many other programs have had one for a long time. When you start where Ohio started, things don't change overnight. What did change overnight was that the kids that were here got coached up to play better, and the culture of hard work, and player development changed next. The overall trend in recruiting has been for it to get better every year, though, as Mike pointed out, the 2010 class was an exception to that.

I guess I will turn the question around to you, and ask why you think Ohio should have the best recruiting class in the MAC? Some of the teams in the MAC have a lot greater tradition of winning over a long period of time. Some have better facilities. Some have more urban setting that some recruits may prefer. I'm not trying to knock Ohio here - I'm just saying that each school has something to sell, and they do each sell their strengths. Over the last 40 years, Athens has obviously been harder to sell than some other locations, and it was reflected in the teams. With a stable coaching situation, and better facilities, Ohio now has more to sell than they did, and it shows in the classes, but that doesn't make it an automatic move right to the top of the recruiting lists.

As for Kent, those recruiting classes were recruited by Martin, who was a decent coach, and had the program moving in generally the right direction. At the time of those recruiting classes, Kent was being touted by Phil Steele to win the MAC, and I'm sure that helped recruiting. Hazell is reaping the benefit now of what Martin sowed, but it remains to be seen how sustainable the program will be.

Last Edited: 11/20/2012 11:03:27 AM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Monroe Slavin
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 4:45:17 PM

Effect of our IPF? Especially given it will be new?

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L.C.
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 5:34:05 PM

My guess is that it will remove one objection, "but they don't have an IPF", and make it easier to close sales. By itself it won't land any recruit, but it's just another reason to choose Ohio, or, eliminates one reason why some recruit might choose someplace else. I think it's already helping, based on all the early commits this year.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Paul Graham
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 6:51:28 PM

Why should Ohio be able to out-recruit others in the MAC?

(1) Better university, academically speaking.

(2) One of the most beautiful campuses in the country

(3) Arguably the most fun place to go to school in the country, both empirically and anecdotally.

(4) One of the best football teams in the MAC, going back about 5 years or so.

(5) Pretty decent support from students, comparatively speaking.

(6) A staff that is not going anywhere.

(7) A head coach that has been to a national championship game as a head coach.

Shall I go on?

LC and others want to continue to make excuses for this staff. But, I think its starting to become apparent that these guys cannot recruit.

Even with all our success earlier this year, Rivals has us ranked 8'th in the MAC. That is totally unacceptable.

Oh, and the only reason we got a good ranking last year is that we took risks with some non-qualifiers that may or may not eventually show up. As of now that class probably does not deserve the ranking it got.

So get used to being out-recruited by half the MAC. But thats OK, we've got Frank and Brian Haines and his punt formation.

Last Edited: 11/20/2012 6:51:46 PM by Paul Graham

Doc Bobcat
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 8:27:22 PM

Rivals has us with 8 verbals......we have 16 and with their point system that puts us third in the league......acceptable.

L.C.
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 8:43:31 PM

Paul, your #4-5 did not apply as recently as a few years ago, and as I pointed out, a few years ago Ohio did not have the facilities or tradition, either. Each year the case for Ohio gets stronger, and each year the recruiting class gets stronger as well. I don't know what more you want, well, actually I do, but I also know you probably will never get it, and if you do, you won't be as happy as you think because it will only last a year or two.

When you want to turn a program around, there are two approaches - one is the hot salesman that gets top recruiting classes. The other is the solid coach. The trouble with the "great recruiters" is that they often aren't very good coaches, so, they have spotty success, and, if they aren't careful, their record eventually catches up with them. These types are also good at selling themselves, so, they use that spotty success to sell themselves up the ranks, and they try not to stay in any one place too long. Often they sell themselves to the top, then crash and burn. When you do find a coach that is a great salesman, but also a good coach, they move right to the top, and quickly, because they are a rare breed. I'd put Brian Kelly in that group, by the way. He stayed at CMU 3 years, and Cincy 3 years, on his way to Notre Dame.

Is Solich cut from that same cloth? No, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I agree with you that his core strength is not recruiting, but instead is coaching. Obviously he's an adequate recruiter because, if he wasn't, Ohio wouldn't be winning. In my opinion, the best way to build a solid program is to build it on solid coaching. Following that method what you see happen is that over time, the program builds a reputation, and the recruiting classes get better. In this regard Solich is like such coaches as his mentor, Tom Osborne, Bill Snyder at Kansas State, and Jim Grobe, for that matter. These weren't great "salesmen", and the recruiting classes they brought in early in their careers weren't the greatest. Instead they built a reputation for a winning program, which in turn attracted better recruits, and over a long period of time the program continued to progress. I'm sure you can think of a lot of other coaches in this same mold. Sadly for Ohio, Grobe left just as he was establishing a reputation at Ohio, and Ohio took a step backwards, but had he stayed, I think Ohio would have continued to make steady progress.

As for this year's class, we'll see where it ends up being ranked, but I think it will be higher than 8th, though the ranking will be held back some by the small class size. I wouldn't put any stock in the current Rivals rankings because at this point their ratings are pretty meaningless. I'm guessing Rivals had some cutbacks in their budget this year because they have been very, very slow to rate players, not just for Ohio, but for all MAC teams. I think that less than 30% of the MAC recruits have been ranked yet.

247 Sports comes closer to having ranked the bulk of recruits. They also have Ohio 8th because their class will be smaller than some of the others. I prefer quality to quantity, however, and if you look at average ranking per player it is:
U.Mass 78.5 (0/8 ranked under 76, lowest 76)
Ohio 78.1 (1/10 ranked under 76, lowest 75)
Toledo at 77.65 (4/17 ranked under 76, lowest 73)
NIU 77.17 (5/12 ranked under 76, lowest 71)
BG 77.0 (3/12 ranked under 76, lowest 71)
Ball State 76.94 (6/17 ranked under 76, lowest 70)
Kent 76.38 (5/8 ranked under 76, lowest 71)
WMU 75.83 (7/13 ranked under 76, lowest 71)
CMU 75.78 (10/18 ranked under 76, lowest 71)
Akron 75.67 (3/6 ranked under 76, lowest 72)
Miami 75.00 (6/10 ranked under 76, lowest 73)
Buffalo 75.00 (3/5 ranked under 76, lowest 72)
EMU 74.50 (7/9 ranked under 76, lowest 70)

I'm not sure if there is grade inflation at work, because all MAC schools are way up from last year, but no one more so than Ohio. Ohio averaged 75.58 last year, but if you take out the three no-shows and the one that left, they only averaged 74.25. As far as the accuracy of their ratings, the ratings look pretty accurate to me. Their highest rated player was Sebastian Smith, who would have played had he not gotten hurt, at 85. Next were Windham and Laseak, who was listed as #2 at DE, but they kept his redshirt. Next came John Tanner at 75, who was also out with an injury. The ones recruited last year that did play were Tim Edmond (75), Daz Patterson (73), Matt Waters (74), and Ty Branz (72). Thus, you'll be happy to know that, in theory, every one of this years recruits are better than those 4.

I should add that their ratings are confusing because they have two for each player. Their rating, and a "composite" rating, which they pull from somewhere else. I personally think their rating of Daz was way low, and the composite for him agrees, coming in at 78. The composites were also much higher than theirs for a number of other players, and I hope those turn out to be right. This year their ratings are closer to the composite numbers, which I suppose accounts for the grade inflation. The average composite for last year, excluding no-shows, was 76.8.

Last Edited: 11/20/2012 9:25:25 PM by L.C.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Mike Coleman
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/20/2012 10:32:53 PM

First off, I think the rivals rankings are murky at best, but I think avg. stars is a better guage. I mean, why penalize a team for only having 15 seniors.

Here's current avg stars in the MAC.

2013 Team Rankings

Rank	School	Total	4-starCommits	3-starCommits	Avg	Points
#12	Eastern Michigan	4	1	0	2.67	165
#3	Miami (OH)	9	0	4	2.5	390
#8	Ohio	8	0	2	2.5	225
#11	Northern Illinois	12	0	2	2.5	195
#4	Central Michigan	18	0	3	2.43	360

L.C.
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/21/2012 12:40:29 AM

I agree with you - quality over quantity. Even then you can't tell anything. They have rated only 4 of 15 Ohio recruits so far, and what appears to be a low percentage for everyone else, too. I don't recall them ever being this slow with ratings in the past.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

mf279801
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/21/2012 8:16:15 AM

Paul Graham wrote:

Why should Ohio be able to out-recruit others in the MAC?

(1) Better university, academically speaking.

...

LOL yep, thats why all the top recruits choose the SEC, for the academics! And thats why Duke, Vanderbilt, and Northwestern dominate their conferences. (I shamelessly left out Stanford because it didn't help make my point). Also have to admit that the small/Applachian college town atmosphere isn't everyone's cup of tea (i.e. city folk)

Bcat2
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/21/2012 8:22:44 AM

Paul Graham wrote:

Paul, I think it is apparent these guys can recruit. That Ohio is "one of the best football teams in the MAC, going back 5 years or so", is proof. Well the play calling has been pretty good too. You might know that most of your list is intangible and subjective. Intangibles and subjectives are like ....... May I point out that last year's srs, (East Div Chps & bowl winners) and this year's srs, (winningest sr class ever) were all recruited before the statement, "One of the best football teams in the MAC, going back 5 years or so," could be made. Getting them was either very good recruiting or, or nothing, it was good recruiting. This team beat Penn State for crying out loud. I just wish these tough oponents had been front loaded on the schedule before the injuries.

Last Edited: 11/21/2012 8:50:27 AM by Bcat2

"Do not pray for easy lives. Pray to be stronger men." JFK

Robert Fox
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/21/2012 8:40:47 AM

Empirical evidence of arguably the most fun. That's rock solid.

L.C.
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/21/2012 11:25:01 AM

Just to be clear, here, I'm not "making excuses for the staff". I'm simply explaining the strategy. You can like it or not, or criticize it or not, but I wanted to make sure people understood the plan. Solich has patterned what he is doing at Ohio after what Snyder did at K-State, and that didn't happen overnight, but instead was a long road with steady progress. Some see progress at Ohio. Others see the things that haven't been accomplished yet.

�We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak.� ― Epictetus

Mark Lembright '85
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/21/2012 7:36:01 PM

Paul Graham wrote:

Paul, intrinsically I agree with you on every single point you make as to why you think Ohio should be able to out recruit every other MAC team (yes, Ohio IS the most fun, hands down!!!), but apparently most recruits must disagree. Most of the reasons you state have existed for the last 40 years or so yet other than the Solich years-and the Grobe years-Ohio football has just sucked, no other way to put it. I think recruits are looking for more. What that was/is, I don't know; I just know until Coach Solich arrived we didn't have it. So I'll give Coach Solich and the team their due-6 weeks ago they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. When all is said and done, they still are...

Darn these Great Lakes Christmas Ales are REALLY good this year.....

UpSan Bobcat
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/22/2012 10:34:32 AM

To show how inexact a science rating recruiting is, Rivals has Eastern Michigan with a four-star recruit, quarterback Brogan Roback from Toledo St. John's. Apparently, Rivals is among the only ones to think he's that good because his only offers are from MAC schools. I'd be certain if major programs thought he was a four-star recruit, they'd have offered him a scholarship.

Doc Bobcat
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/22/2012 11:25:50 AM

1) Better university, academically speaking.

Some may worry that we're too strong academically.....others could care less.

(2) One of the most beautiful campuses in the country

Many like the inner city gangsta style lifestyle.

(3) Arguably the most fun place to go to school in the country, both empirically and anecdotally.

That's one thing all schools may try to emphasize when they get students on campus.

(4) One of the best football teams in the MAC, going back about 5 years or so.

That's the pitch many use....help bring the team back to former glory and you can play now.

(5) Pretty decent support from students, comparatively speaking.

Don't they all.

(6) A staff that is not going anywhere.

Younger staffs may appeal to some.

(7) A head coach that has been to a national championship game as a head coach.

Hard to argue with that one....yet he was fired after a 9-3 season.

Casper71
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RE: kent recruiting

Posted: 11/23/2012 4:19:19 PM

doc-on your last point it is obvious Solich has gotten us players just a bit better than we had before (but hasn't gotten us enough of them to still not have a depth problem with the injuries). And, to emphasize your one point, I have a feeling his age is beginning to become a negative. On the sidelines during the game he is always talking upstairs but seldom talks to players. Me thinks, he has gone as far as he will go and has taken us as for as we can go. It's not quite the next level but it is pretty close. Can we win a MACC before I go on to greener pastures? I used to think so, now I am not so sure.

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